The United States is Torturing Terrorists….Aren’t They?
September 20th, 2006I’m curious what people think of the CIA’s use of "torture" that has been in the news lately. They must be doing god awful things to the poor terrorist prisoners right? Maybe poking them with burning things, ripping off nails, gouging out eyes, that kind of thing right?
Anyone agree that what the CIA is doing to terrorists is wrong, and they deserve the same rights as any US citizen enjoys?
Update: You didn’t really think I’d leave it at that, did you? 
I’d heard reports about the atrocious things that the USA was supposedly carrying out in secret torture camps around the world. Of course those reports were never specific and left everything to your imagination. So what’s really going on there?
Luckily there’s been an independent investigation by ABC that not only explains what types of coercion (not torture) are being used, but how it has produced information that has stopped upwards of 12 terror plots. I won’t even bother touching on the fact that we face an enemy who beheads POWs and doesn’t give a crap about the Geneva Convention.
If, in the defense of our country, we drop a daisy killer on a known terrorist and I pump my fist in the air; then I cannot protest when, in the defense of our country, we torture a known terrorist (letting him live) to get information vital to the protection of our life and values.
My only hope is that they are KNOWN terrorists. If we were picking up “possibles” and torturing them, then there is a line that has been crossed.
Would you rather we fight terror in a closed room with a guilty terrorist or by bombing them in a crowded city? If we play by their rules, then even when we win, many have lost.
The thing many people dont understand is the fact that many detained “terrorists” are actually people who have been loosely tied to terrorist factions. It is understated that many of the detainees have not acted nor intended to act under Terrorism. Im a poly sci student at the U of O and i wrote a thesis on detention of suspected terrorists.
Funny thing is that everyone seems to believe everyone in captivity at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba (Camp X-Ray) is an actual terrorist when many of them have been taken in under assumption. Thats right, assumption. These people have tried to make appeals to the US Supreme Court and there attempts have been quickly abolished about the Patriot Act and people Bush has elected to ensure detainees remain detained.
There is currently a 19 year old “boy” who has been held at Gitmo for over 4 years. This boy had been captured as a Canadian Citizen (Because he was born there) but spent most of his life learning from Osama and living at his palace with his older brother and his mother. He, his brother, and his mother were not invited, rather selected to live with Osama, and dammit when Osama selects a group they sure as heck should accept or we can assume what would most likely occur (Death?!?!). So they moved back to Afghanistan from Canada and resided in Osama’s palace. The sad fact is that his older brother is the one who supposedly tipped forces off about his supposed “importance” to terrorism, what a wonderful family. He was later captured after lobbing a grenade at a US soldier (they did not mention a casualty, which i would assume means it did not detonate). Before you say “darn right and that boy is getting what he deserved” imagine yourself in his situation. An enemy has invaded your country and is killing and capturing all those who you know, i dont know about you but i think i may have reacted in the same manner. Anyway, this kid has been a captive since the age of 15 at our “torture” facility, in which prisoners live in Dog Kennel-like cages. He has faced repetitive torture and sustained hours in painful contortions. Dont believe me? Paste the link found below into your browser and for extra credit do a little research on Omar Khadr (thats the boys name).
And i quote on a friend who i recently discussed this with “let me begin by saying that these dehumanizing acts have only recently become used. In guantanamo bay, SERE techniques (the interrogation method currently used), which were originally designed not for use in the real world, but to test the Psichic endurance of airforce pilots. When the FBI sent it’s best counter-terrorism specialists, they originaly used a trust-based form of info-gathering, which apparently worked. However, later into the war george w. bush authorized the inhumain treatment described below. it’s well documented that torture, (physical and dehumanizing torture I might also add) still goes on in Abu Ghraib, guantanamo bay, and probably many other facilities that harbor POW’s and detainees. As for the mental abuse, that is not the only type of torture that’s harbored. When Omar Kadar participated with 200 other detainees in a hunger strike, within few weeks gaurds began beating them and force feeding through the nose with thick tubes. also, during periods of interrogation when his response was not adiquate to the question (on seperate occasions), he was beaten, shackled to a center bolt in the middle of a small room and his arms and legs were pulled behind his back and shackled to his legs and he was left alone for hours. on one occasion Omar was left transixed in a shackle position for hours. he ******ed himself and the gaurds later returned to the room to mock him. they poured a household cleaning substance over his body, realesed him from the centerbolt grabbed him by the legs to swing him around the room, letting the solvent and urine wash up into his face, hair and clothes. The MP’s sent him back to his cell, and was denied a new change of clothes for two days. Now, according to the SERE theory, the most effective techniques included humiliation, included sleep deprivation, coersive physical abuse, sexual mortification, hooding, water boarding, and religious desecration. According to the SERE theory, the most effective techniques include coersive physical harm, sleep deprivation, sexual mortification, wanter boarding, religious desicration and unpredictible pain and harm delivered unpredictibly. Several behavioral scientests (Including Dr. Eric truman, who has written extensive esseys and articals about the incarceration of adolescents) analyzing the situation have stated that the reason so many inmates are beggining to experience delirum, provide unreliable info, and are actively suicidal- is due to to the deprivation of identity (in reaction to the brutal physical and mental torture) Omar Kahdr, and almost every other inmate incarcerated in the facility are experiencing.” Thanks Paradox.
The importance of this is that the United States is supposed to set a good example for other countries to follow. Regardless of whether other countries allow inhumane and brutal torture, our country has been known to be the “land of the free” and furthermore we have operated under the system of democracy. The idea of Torture is completely contradictory to the system we all function under. Its a sad day when our country is not run by leadership, rather by fear. And this is exactly what you are seeing; what drives one to murder, torture, and initiate war in a unilateral manner? Fear. Our fear has grown to such immense proportions that we are now acting just as our enemies do. You cant fight such situations with anger and fear because as we all know from a fight with a girlfriend or an arguement with a parent, co-worker, or employer- Fighting fire with fire only makes matters worse- what we need to begin doing is acting in a manner which we wish to see others act. You cant change people, but you can HELP them change by acting as an aid rather than an enemy. On a personal level i encourage you to try this just for a day and see if it doesnt make a difference for both your and others happiness. Greet each and every person you come across, take time to hear anyone out, and act towards everyone as if you care. It is us who need to begin making changes- Our leadership has in-part failed us and we need to correct the failure. I encourage all of you to begin making changes, its not difficult if you really intend on changing, maybe its just one thing a day, but in a lifetime you will have changed millions of things. If you read all of this i applaud you, its alot, but just imagine typing it
If you dont believe me check out this link:
http://us.oneworld.net/article/view/125238/1/
I say let’s not torture the towelheads, leave that for the fbi fags, America should just “drop the big one now” like Randy Newman said; we’ll see who dares be a terrorist against us then.After we’re through massacring them desert niggers let’s bring our troops home and have target practice at the mexican border, immigration laws my ass, shoot the brown vermin off our land. Those beaners won’t even know what hit them. And if that fool Fox says peep we claim territorial defense, it’s self defense against an invasion anyway.
Hey who are you to support territorial defense or self defense in your ignorant terms. Its not like hispanic individuals in our country, illegal or not, are running around wielding heavy weapons shooting people. In fact, 78% of homicidal crime committed is done by caucasian individuals- well over half of all crimes involving homicide. Anyway i just want to make one point to all of the ignorant and otherwise idiotic people such as yourself: You yourself ARE an immigrant. Believe it or not hispanics and native americans were the first known people(s) to settle in what we now call the United States. Then european settlers forced the hispanic people further south (they used to inhabit areas which are now known as arizona and texas until we drove them south). Then they slaughered Native Americans, unified, and created what we like to call reservations.) It is the very attitude of people such as yourself who create animosity and anger from the other side of the fence (IE hispanics and those you accuse in your post). It is very naive of you to blame problems associated with our country on illegal immigrants and people who were born in the very country which faces war from the United States (Iraq, Afghanistan). If you want to blame anyone take a look in the mirror because it is YOU (considering you can vote) who has allowed for war. Had voting gone differently we would see a different stance on the issue. But our current president, backed by little support from both the UN and Europe, has chosen all of this. He entered war unilaterally (he entered the US in the war by ourselves; or without support of other countries), and that is why we are still fighting in Iraq. Had we gained support of other countries before our entry we would have had alot of other countries sending in troops as well. Also, we have tried to FORCE democracy on a country that wholly opposes our system with everything from their culture to their history. So instead of pointing the finger, realize that you A) know nothing about what you are talking about; and B) should probably be institutionalized- because we definetly don’t need people like you making changes in our country.
and by the way “lets drop the big one” is a satirical song written to spite people such as yourself- Also have you considered that song came out in the 70’s? Well heres an interesting excerp from an article i found “Political Science is a commetary on American foreign policy among other things, but could be taken as a comment on the way that man has a tendancy to crack walnuts with a sledge hammer and go in with guns blazing” If you are interested in seeing where i found it the link is as follows:
http://www.soundtrack-express.com/osts/sailaway.htm
Wow, much to consider. When I hear reports about how the prisoners are stabbing doctors while the doctors are saving their lives, I really don’t have much pity. Post some links/documentation for all the claims you make, I’d love to read them.
the.Rumor…thanks for posting, but you’re pushing out a bunch of liberal propaganda. You can yell at the top of your lungs that the US went to war by ourselves, but you’re still wrong. And no, Iraq doesn’t oppose democracy. Did you fail to notice all the people voting last year?
I don’t mind having an intelligent discussion, but stick to the facts.
dude, what just happened on your blarg?
I have to admit I didn’t read most of these comments…. the name “therumor” was all I needed to see. my first comment still stands.
I, believe it or not, actually try to stick to facts. Your always going to hear bad stories from both sides of the fence; The thing you need to realize is that as much as my arguements sound like liberal propaganda, yours support a conservative propaganda- I really have no bias, i vote independent, and i think that both liberals and conservatives have much to learn from eachother. It is the idea of only thinking for one side that causes such disaster, and what im trying to do is serve as a “devil’s advocate” as you might call it. Dont think for a second that i feel like Iraq is getting the short end of the stick, i just believe that there are issues that the US can go about differently solving, so instead of rambling on about all the facts I tried to stick to an arguement that should support the idea that the United States should not be torturing detainees. Call it liberal bias, but you need to understand that any way you try to argue this you are not thinking in gestalt, because if you take time to consider everything you’d realize that Torture is just a method used to put the fear of masses at bay, it gives certain individuals gratification; a sense of retrobution for all theyve done to us. Sad thing is that sooner or later one side is going to have to change or we will continue down this path for years and years. And as a rebuttal to your democracy statement, ever care to understand that we have forced democracy on them? its not like we gave them and option and told them to set up and institution of their own- We told them how it would be and what to do… so in essence we are just running another country, your talking about a country that has been at war with itself and neighboring countries since the beginning of time. What a savior president Bush is to Iraq- too bad he doesnt carry any labor for his efforts, it is the troops over there who are making all the changes, and it is the mothers over here who are doing all the crying. And yes, Bush did enter the Iraq war unilaterally, do some research- He was unsupported by member states of the US and he went to Iraq anyway… Maybe this had something to do with the fact that he hadnt even finished up in Afghanistan before moving to Iraq. What ever happened to Osama? I, as unbiased as i can be, truly believe that the reason there is so much hatred and animosity in the world is because we dont like to admit it but we are actually not that different. Im not trying to blow smoke up your arse with some liberal propoganda, i just saw this post, saw one point of view taken, and figured id argue for the other side- I do stick to facts and ive left supporting website links to all of my arguements…
“he was unsupported by member states of the US (should be changed to UN)
so i say lets stop resorting to acting like bad guys to get what we need. Even if they dont abide by the Geneva Convention, we were primary factors in the drafting of it and i say we adhere to it.
Have you never heard of Great Britain? Japan? Spain? Italy? I’m pretty sure they’re all in the UN.
That’s not conservative propaganda, those are facts. Just because I point out your “unilateral” comment is liberal propaganda does not automatically make my comment conservative propaganda.
To be honest, if you’ve got a point to make you have to be much more succinct, and make better use of paragraphs.
“Unilateralism in the United States
Unilateralism has had a long history in the United States. In his famous and influential Farewell Address, George Washington warned that the United States should “steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world”. Many years later, this approach was labeled (by its opponents) as “isolationism”, but some historians of U.S. diplomacy have long argued that “isolationism” is a misnomer, and that U.S. foreign policy, beginning with Washington, has traditionally been driven by unilateralism. Recent works that have made this argument include Walter A. McDougall’s Promised Land, Crusader State (1997) and John Lewis Gaddis’s Surprise, Security, and the American Experience (2004).
Debates about unilateralism recently came to the forefront with the Iraq War. While over 30 countries have supported the U.S. policy, some previous American allies, such as France, Germany and Turkey, are not participating. Many opponents of the war have argued that the United States is “going it alone” in Iraq without the support of multilateral institutions–in this case NATO and the United Nations, which America has supported since the end of World War II.
Advocates of U.S. unilateralism argue that other countries should not have “veto power” over matters of U.S. national security. Presidential Candidate John Kerry received heavy political heat after saying, during a presidential debate, that American national security actions must pass a “global test”. This was interpreted by Kerry opponents as a proposal to submit U.S. foreign policy to approval by other countries. Proponents of U.S. unilateralism generally believe that a multilateral institution, such as the United Nations, is morally suspect because, they argue, it treats non-democratic, and even despotic, regimes as being as legitimate as democratic countries. Proponents also point out that the unilateralist policy of having the United States control post World War Two Japan was a success than having mulilateral policies such as those used in post war Germany. Japan only took 5 years before adopting their constitution while Germany was divided into West Germany and East Germany for 45 years and being controlled by the United States, France, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union before being reunited.
Critics of American unilateralism point to the ethical implications of engaging in armed conflicts that may inevitably draw in combatants from other nations, as well as the undermining of the international ability to protect small nations from aggressors. Unilateralism, it is argued, can be considered nothing more than a positively-sold version of the very actions that would earn other states the title of aggressor or rogue nation. Opponents of unilateralism say it rejects the essential interwoven nature of modern global politics and perhaps underestimates the extent to which a conflict in one country can affect civilians in others.
Proponents of multilateralism argue that it would provide a country with greater resources, both militarily and economically, and would help in defraying the cost of military action. However, with divided responsibility inevitably comes divided authority, and thus (in theory at least) slower military reaction times and the demand that troops follow commanders from other nations. Multilateralists argue that co-operations strengthens the bonds between nations and peoples, paints the U.S. in a more responsible and respected light, and reduces the risk of wildfire conflicts by increasing the size and unity of the enemy such a rogue nation would face.”
That came from wikidpedia.
‘Many opponents of the war have argued that the United States is “going it alone” in Iraq without the support of multilateral institutions–in this case NATO and the United Nations, which America has supported since the end of World War II.’
As if an encylopedia couldnt be any more correct. Thanks Nathan.
all that says is that “many opponents of the war have argued…” since when does people arguing it make it true?
what are you guys even talking about anyway?
I’m not sure exactly. I think I was making a point about torture vs coersion, but really it all comes down to Iraq.
BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED! BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED!
Say it aloud (in your best Ah-nold voice):
“George W. Bush”
“George W. Bush”
“George W. Bush”
I love that commerical!
Drop the BOMB and stop everything now